In this episode of The Becky Beach Show, Becky sits down with Dr. AJ Lauer, leadership expert and founder of Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions, to unpack the truth about imposter syndrome—what it is, who it affects, and how to overcome it. Get AJ’s freebie here!
AJ shares powerful insights on how even the most accomplished individuals struggle with self-doubt, especially those in underrepresented groups.
Learn how to reframe imposter feelings, build confidence, and embrace your expertise using AJ’s unique “imposter monster” method. This is a must-listen for anyone holding back from sharing their gifts with the world.
About Dr. AJ Lauer and Thriving Ibis
At Thriving Ibis Leadership Solutions, we work to better the professional lives of scientists and technologists. Our mission is to help them thrive, both in and out of their workplace.
After 8 years in the field of workforce development for the high performance computing (HPC) profession, Dr. AJ Lauer wanted to broaden her reach beyond just one field and organization. She founded Thriving Ibis in fall 2023 to do just that.
The Thriving Ibis team of highly-experienced collaborators provides tailored workshops, retreats, individual and group training, and more to help build leadership skills and retention in the workplace.
The Becky Beach Show Episode 84 Transcript
Welcome to the Beach on Beach, and today’s guest is Dr. Dr. AJ Lauer. She’s the owner of Thriving Ibis Leadership. Welcome AJ. Hi, Becky. How you doing? Oh, good. I’m just so excited to have you here. Like I first met AJ through a mutual friend named Jen Bee, and AJ is an expert imposter syndrome. So today’s today’s episode, we’re gonna be focusing on imposter syndrome and how to avoid it and how to overcome it so that you can be more successful.
Dr. AJ Lauer: So, I have a doctorate in interdisciplinary leadership [00:01:00] studies from Creighton University, which is a big fancy way of saying that I’m a huge nerd about leadership and how people work together in organizations. And I started thriving I as leadership solutions so that I could work with people primarily within science and technology, although I’m finding a lot of fun in working with entrepreneurs and people in other kinds of businesses as well develop their leadership.
Skills so that they can be successful and also help the people around them be successful.
Becky Beach: Oh yeah. That, that’s just so awesome that there’s people like you that are just so, so for helping others to be successful. So do you work with primarily women or, or all genders or what?
Dr. AJ Lauer: I work with all genders. Um, I will, I primarily work with women, but I will totally work with people who are male identified.
If they, as long as they are. Nice people, and they’re interested in building their inclusive leadership skills. I’m not interested in working with anybody who’s just like out there to [00:02:00] make tons of money at the cost of other people. That’s not my ideal client.
Becky Beach: Oh, yeah. Yes, definitely. You have to be, be ethical, I guess.
. I, I run across lot people. They’re just in it for themselves, you know, they aren’t willing to help people. They just say, oh, I just wanna make as much money as I can. It’s expensive. Who knows? Who knows who? I’m just don’t, they just don’t really care. Yeah. So tell us more more about imposter syndrome.
Do you, does this happen a lot with clients that you take on?
Dr. AJ Lauer: This happens actually. You know, it’s interesting, it’s not just my clients. Uh, up to 82% of people in the world have experienced imposter feelings at some point. . And so oftentimes it gets pegged as being a women’s issue or being, you know, a minority issue for people with disabilities or L-G-B-T-Q people or whatever.
But 82% of people means that there are straight, white able-bodied people who are experiencing it as well.
Becky Beach: Oh yes. Like I, I’ve even experienced that myself, for instance, like I was, I’m thinking maybe I should teach a course on [00:03:00] spreadsheets, but then. Who am I to teach spreadsheets? I don’t have any really experience doing them.
Like I, I, I have made them in the past. I’m not really an expert. So you kind of question yourself and your capabilities with this imposter syndrome, and it could affect anybody. Even like experts have been, been in business for like 25 years. Like me, it doesn’t matter, you know how much experience you have because still creep up on you.
Would you agree?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Absolutely. Yep. And actually there’s some research that shows that the more exceptional you are, the smarter you are, the more higher achieving you are, actually, the more likely you are to end up experiencing that imposter syndrome. Because the better we get at whatever it is we do, the more we understand how much we don’t know about the thing it is that we do.
And so that leaves more room for us to have that trouble with. Well, this is what I know and I know that there’s this much to know, and so therefore I’m not good enough to teach people about it.
Becky Beach: Yeah, but like, but there’s a secret that like people just wanna be a little, little bit better when they [00:04:00] take a course.
They’re not expecting the moon and the stars, like they just want, you know, just a little bit of information to get them ahead of where they were before they started. And like that’s not everybody really knows, but you know, like they want like quick wins mostly, especially during these tough economic times, people are really looking for quick wins and.
So that that could, that could really help combat imposter syndrome, I feel. ’cause then you’re like, oh, they just want like a quick win. I don’t have to really teach ’em everything there is to know about this topic. I can just teach a specific, you know, viewpoint of it. ’cause people are more into like specific stuff right now.
Would you, would you think so?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think there are different ways, well we know that there are different ways that imposter syndrome shows up for people. For some people it is that expertise issue. So it is what we just talked about where you think you need to know everything. For other people, it shows up as like, I need to be able to do all the things for everyone all the time.
And if I make one mistake, if I drop one ball, then I’m not good enough. [00:05:00] So it really, it comes to just like that feeling of not being good enough to do the thing or people think I’m better than I am is really where we see the imposter syndrome. And yeah, if you, if you can recognize that, you know just a little bit more than somebody else, or you’re able to do a little bit more, help a little bit more, that can be a way that you can kind of level set what your expectations are of expertise so that you can keep moving forward.
Becky Beach: Oh yeah. Like what, what do you, who thinks is the biggest, proponent Ofer syndrome? Is it mostly men or women? Do you see
Dr. AJ Lauer: the biggest sufferer or the biggest Oh yeah. C other people, I guess I
Becky Beach: didn’t say the word right or pronounce it right. Yeah. I guess the biggest sufferer of it.
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah, I, I mean, research shows that people who have minoritized identities are more likely to experience it in more intense ways.
So if you are in the gender minority, in whatever space you are in, if you have a disability, if you are maybe a person of color in an all white space, you’re more likely to have those [00:06:00] imposter feelings. Part of that is just because when you enter into a space that is full of people who aren’t like you, that space wasn’t created with you in mind.
And so when you walk in there, you say, oh, this isn’t for me. And then whatever kind of imposter you are most likely to feel is going to pop up because you’re going to say, well, all the people here are smarter than I am. All the people here are doing more things than I am. All the people here have been in business longer than I have, or are more successful than I am.
And you start to feel those imposter feelings in whatever way that you feel, like you least belong in that space.
Becky Beach: Yeah, I could definitely see that. ’cause like for the first five years when I was blogging, that’s what I, I did, I did First was I was a mom blogger, but I really wanted to make courses, but I felt like I didn’t have enough experience.
So it took me like five years to come up with my first course when I was a mom blogger. I decided to make it on Pinterest because I [00:07:00] was doing really well on Pinterest, but there’s just so many other people doing Pinterest too, and I thought, who am I to teach Pinterest when other people have been doing it much longer, even though I was having experience doing it and getting successful, but I didn’t think I, I, I was worthy to teach Pinterest when all these other people that have more experience and or even more successful than I.
Dr. AJ Lauer: . Absolutely. Yeah. That worthiness question is one that comes up in imposter feelings a lot.
Becky Beach: So what, what are some steps someone, somebody can take like easy steps to get over their imposter syndrome?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Well, so the way that I talk about it is. Taking a moment to hear the voice in your head that is telling you that you are an imposter.
So really taking a quiet moment, maybe even shutting your eyes and say, I hear this voice when, I don’t know enough. That’s one that shows up for me. I hear this voice and it says, you don’t know enough to be on that stage. You don’t know enough to create the course. You don’t know enough to [00:08:00] whatever.
And I picture that. Voice as what I call an imposter monster. So you are actually giving embodiment to this voice. And then once you can picture it as this part, you picture this part of you as like a creature, you can start to interact with it and you can talk to it and you can develop a relationship with it.
And so I can say, okay, well I’m hearing that I don’t have the expertise to get on this stage. And I know that I was accepted to be on this stage by the people who were the judges of who should be on this stage, and they clearly thought that I should be on here. . I know that I have a good bit of knowledge in whatever way.
Uh, I think that means that I am competent enough to get up on this stage and give this talk or do whatever it is, and so, . Once you start to actually process what it is that’s [00:09:00] causing you to have those feelings . And interacting with it in your own mind, and I know that might sound a little batty to some people, but it works.
Yeah. Uh, if you can picture it and it helps to picture it as a creature because then you are actually interacting with, you know, not just a voice in your head, but like a. A person.
Becky Beach: Yeah. I really love how you could personify this imposter syndrome as a monster, like a creature. . That’s inside you. I really like that.
’cause then you’re kind of disassociating it from yourself. So it’s not really you, it’s just this feeling or, or this creature, like something outside you that’s existing that you could, you know, push away. ’cause it’s not a part of you anymore. It’s, it’s this creature. I really, a lot like that.
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah. Well, I, I don’t typically encourage people to push it away.
Rather, it’s more of an embracing and trying to learn from that part of you that’s showing up in that moment. Because for most of us, these feelings come from [00:10:00] a, a bit of a red flag. Like, Hey, you’re entering this space that isn’t for you. Hey, you’ve been told a lot of times that you aren’t supposed to be doing this, or people like you shouldn’t be doing it.
And there are reasons that you’ve been getting those messages. So rather than just shoving it out the door, we’re taking a moment to say, okay, what can I learn from this voice that’s coming up in my head? And how can I kind of change my relationship with it to be able to still do the things that are making me nervous, even as I’m getting these red flags?
Becky Beach: I remember going back to what you said where, If you’re in a situation where you’re the only, like, let’s say you’re, you’re the only like, L-G-B-T-Q person in, in the summit and everybody else, you know, identifies as straight or Yeah, and they didn’t or assist, you know, they identify as that, but you’re the only L-G-B-T-Q person.
Would you intentionally put yourself into that situation, or would you just find yourself into it? But if you just find yourself, [00:11:00] is there a way to protect yourself so that you’re not feeling overwhelmed by other people in that that’re not like you or feeling the imposter syndrome?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah, I think that comes down to what kind of relationship you end up developing with your monster, right?
Yeah. For a lot of people, these monsters are protective. They’re, they’re not the scary monster under the bed. They’re actually a protective monster who’s there to help you not enter into situations that aren’t safe. Right? And so in that example, the person who’s walking into that room would have to take a moment and assess if it actually is safe, right?
But by taking that moment. They’re actually making a thoughtful decision rather than reacting to the the warning of their monster in a more emotional way. And that is what allows you to move into that space if you decide to do so with more confidence or to pull back from that space [00:12:00] with more confidence, knowing that you’re making that decision for a reason that is true to yourself rather than just a reactive.
Kind of trauma response.
Becky Beach: Yeah. ’cause a lot of times we will find ourselves in these, situations where we’re the only such person in a group. Like I, I’ve been in this too, where I, I was actually the only woman in a male dominated career, which was it. And I was the only woman in the group. And a lot of times the men, I.
I just felt like they didn’t see me as an equal, like for instance, there, there’s this, like this code checking service called GitHub. . And they would pull my code into the GitHub and they would really scrutinize it to make sure it was perfect. And they didn’t do this for the other men I noticed.
Like they would pull theirs right away and they trusted. That their code was perfect. Like before they pulled mine in, they always scrutinize it and just ask me like, why’d you do it this way? Why’d you do it this way? Why didn’t you do it this way? And, and like, I was the only one getting treated this way and it was because I was a woman and I just, I just felt like an imposter in this situation.
Like, like who am I? Even though I have all this experience [00:13:00] coding, like why am I getting scrutinized?
Dr. AJ Lauer: . Absolutely. And that right there you have pinpointed exactly the reason why I don’t like, I don’t love calling it the imposter syndrome.
Dr. AJ Lauer: Because in that instance, your code was probably great.
Yeah, right. There was nothing wrong with what you were doing. There’s nothing wrong with you. The problem is the environment that you found yourself in. The culture in that space was we check women’s work. Hmm. Right. And so the original researchers actually called it the imposter phenomenon. And I like that a lot better because a phenomenon is a moment in time, it’s an experience.
Right. And so in that moment you were experiencing an imposter phenomenon moment. There was nothing wrong with Oh, interesting. You don’t have a syndrome, you have nothing diagnosable. Yeah. But you were encountering a moment that was making you feel like an imposter. And [00:14:00] for so many of these imposter phenomenon moments, that’s what is happening.
Becky Beach: Yeah. That, that’s a really great insight. I never thought of it that way. Yeah. ’cause you could find yourself in a, in like a situation where you’re just a unique individual. You don’t fit in with the other people in, in this environment. And then you start questioning your yourself, like who you are. Like are you belong here?
I guess it’s a sense of belonging and you’re having this imposter phenomenon. . Totally.
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah. So when I talk to groups about it, I will talk about, okay, now we understand a little bit more about what causes each one of us to feel like an imposter. . And you know, when I have a good bit of time with people, we will explore what are functions in our unit that can bring up those feelings in people.
So if we’re a unit that does a lot of hiring . We’ll take a moment and we’ll say what in the hiring process may cause people who are interviewing to flare up with this imposter phenomenon feeling? [00:15:00] How can we mitigate the way that we are managing this process to help people feel more comfortable to help them see how they might belong in that space?
Becky Beach: Oh, yeah. I really love that, that you do that for people like that seems very helpful. Yeah. So what, what is like, like, like the biggest challenge that somebody with imposter syndrome could face? Like how would they be able to get over it?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Well, I think for many people it is that the messages that they receive that make them feel like an imposter in certain situations.
They’ve been getting their whole lives. . You know, you mentioned you worked in it. I work with a lot of people who, have roles in science and technology. . And so the messages that we get in science and technology are women aren’t as good at it. Um, maybe we get the message like there aren’t even any LGBT people in science and tech, which is so incredibly not true.
Becky Beach: Yeah, that’s a lot of people.
Dr. AJ Lauer: But that’s, I mean, we, [00:16:00] the visibility is not necessarily there, so we don’t even see that they, I. Belong in that space. We might get the message that, Asian people are supposed to be good at science and technology. And math. Yeah. And so for an Asian person who is going through school or going through their career, if they are not good at those things, they may feel like an imposter.
Right. And so the hardest thing about this is that often. The reason that we have those imposter feelings is because of something that we’ve been hearing our entire lives. . And so you have to figure out how to navigate that as the adult or the person that you are now, in order to do the things that you really wanna do or might be passionate about.
Becky Beach: Yeah, there’s lot, lots of stereotypes that contribute to imposter syndrome. Like what is what you’re saying? Like there’s just all these, like, and also, there’s even black people, like they’re, they’re not really encouraged to go into stem. Like I noticed that. . And that’s a bad thing because they’re, because they’re, they’re definitely capable and they’re [00:17:00] very smart.
It’s like anybody else, like they should be able to go into STEM and not receive any backlash from even their peers or, or others. .
Dr. AJ Lauer: Absolutely. Yeah. And those messages hurt all of us, right? . I mean, when there aren’t the example that people who talk about this a lot often will use like, there aren’t.
Black people on the team that designs the automatic hand, things that are ins, you know, sinks that are installed places, and the automatic sinks then don’t recognize it when a person with dark ha dark skin puts their hand underneath it.
Becky Beach: Oh, that’s so interesting. You know, that if there
Dr. AJ Lauer: had been a person of color on that team, they probably would’ve solved for that problem.
Or, you know, like marketing teams. I just saw a marketing ad that was. Like any woman had looked at it, they would’ve been like, that is a menstrual pad. And they had it all over the place. Yeah. And, and it made through scrutiny. It [00:18:00] must have been an all male team. I. Right. Yeah. ’cause any woman would’ve looked at that and been like, you can’t, that, you can’t sell that that way.
Becky Beach: Yeah. There really needs to be a diversity in these companies and on their teams because that Yeah, just, it’s to combat problems just like that, there needs to be like a, like a very diverse amount of people that can actually, you know, determine Oh, that, that, that wouldn’t work out. I don’t think That’s right.
Like, that wouldn’t appeal to that market, you know? So it’s good to have diverse teams, I think. . Yeah, because it’s good for, for businesses to, to pro what their, their message to all different kinds of people. And if they have all different kinds of people in their own environment, in their own workplace, then I think they can get the message better to, to reach different people.
Like, I don’t know why, like I, I just, when I heard that, I was really just heartened. Personally that they were doing that ’cause. ’cause that means women, you know, won’t get the same chances. So I was like really against that. Especially in it like now. Now these companies don’t have to hire women in their it.
Maybe I was like a token woman in these IT teams. I don’t know. [00:19:00]
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah. What? I think you were probably pretty good at what you were doing. Oh yeah. Don’t just discount your skills most of the time when, when there is an only in a situation, they have to be way better than. Else because they have to overcome the stereotypes to get hired in the first place.
Oh, yeah. Well, discount yourself. I’m not gonna let you do that, Becky.
Becky Beach: . Oh, oh yeah. Well, I guess now I’m kind of questioning myself whether I was only hired as a woman because I’m a woman. Is that why? Or, but I, I, I do, I do have bloodless, like, doing this for like 25 years, so I definitely did know my coding, you know, I, I didn’t need to have some men scrutinize it.
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah. That is unfortunately a very common story.
Becky Beach: So someone listening out there and they’re thinking, yeah, I can really, really relate to this, but like, I’m not not sure if I can apply it to my real life. Like I don’t know if I’m really that, that much of imposter, or maybe I’m just, just overthinking things.
Like what would you say to this person [00:20:00]
Dr. AJ Lauer: I. I would say that if, if you found this interesting and you resonated with pretty much any of the conversation that we’re having today, it is worth learning more about imposter feelings. Uh, you know, like I said earlier, the imposter phenomenon impacts up to 82% of people.
So in all likelihood, at some point, most of us will have. An imposter feeling at some point. Actually, I think it’s funny that we keep studying the imposter syndrome, the imposter phenomenon when, because with anything else, if 82% of people experienced it, we would be studying the 18% who don’t. . Right.
Becky Beach: Yeah. Because we’re
Dr. AJ Lauer: at the overwhelming majority of humans are experiencing this, of like, what’s going on with those other 18% over there. That’s what I’m curious about. Uh, but if you’re finding that you’re resonating with any of this, then it. Probably is worth learning a little bit more and studying it and seeing, you know, how you identify it and how you might handle it for your specific [00:21:00] experiences.
Becky Beach: Yeah. So where, where can people find you? Aj? What? What’s your website and your social media?
Dr. AJ Lauer: So, my website is thriving ibis.com. . And I assume we can throw that in the show notes. Oh, sure. Because it’s kind hard to spell lots of I, yes. And then I’m very active on LinkedIn primarily, so you can find me on LinkedIn.
I am, you know, linkedin.com/in/aj Lauer. Uh, and I’m always happy to converse with folks there. And I put out a lot of content about imposter syndrome and also about more general leadership topics,
Becky Beach: probably. Great. Great. I’m, I’m definitely gonna connect with you on LinkedIn. I’m also pretty active on there, and I’ll make sure to put Dr. AJ Lauer’s information in the show notes.
And do you have any freebie for our listeners?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Uh, I am working on a longer freebie workshop on imposter monsters. Oh, good. So if you seek me out . And you, find my email list, or you follow me on LinkedIn, there will be [00:22:00] notification about that when it drops.
Becky Beach: Oh yes. If it, it has happens to drop before I release this podcast, I’ll put in the show notes for, for everybody to stay, to, to sign up for that.
Because I think that’d be really beneficial. I really like how you’re, you’re kind of, making imposters into monstrous because it really, really is because it’s just such a negative creature that we end up getting inside ourselves and it prevents us from moving forward and taking action. .
Dr. AJ Lauer: Absolutely. And like I said, you know, when we can understand why that creature is showing up, it gets a lot less scary.
Becky Beach: Because there’s been times where I, I’ve even procrastinated on, on some subject I wanted to teach because I was just worried like, who am I to teach? Maybe I gotta, you know, learn more about it.
And I ended up just forgetting all, all about it all together and not even pursuing it. .
Dr. AJ Lauer: Yeah. And how many opportunities are we missing? Because we get scared at that, that launch moment? At that moment when we’re making the decision whether we wanna do something, that’s a shame. There’s a lot of really cool knowledge that’s probably not being put out into the world because we feel like [00:23:00] we’re not good enough.
Becky Beach: Oh yeah. I just love, love that you said that. So what are some last words you have for our listeners, aj?
Dr. AJ Lauer: Oh, my last words are. I know that it sounds a little kooky, the imposter monster thing. People may be like, oh, that’s a little like I’m talking to myself. But it is supported by quite a few psychological and therapeutic traditions, and so I encourage you, even if it sounds a little weird, to sit down for a moment and hear that voice in your head that tells you that you’re not good enough.
Picture it as a monster. And start getting to know it. .
Becky Beach: Well, AJ, I understand that you have a book. Could you tell us more about it?
Dr. AJ Lauer: I sure do. So my book is called My Monster mgo, A story about Imposter Syndrome. Oh, I love that. And it is an, it is, yeah. It’s really cute, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s an illustrated short story for adults.
About imposter syndrome. So it follows a character named Katie as she. [00:24:00] Talks about imposter syndrome with her friends and learns about their experiences with it, and then she goes back to her house and actually meets her monster and starts to develop and experience that relationship to figure out how she can cope with her own feelings of imposter hood.
It is. I really firmly believe that adults should get to read picture books too. I think it’s more fun. I think we learn really quickly through pictures. We’re kind of wired that way as humans. . And so why not? Let adults read a picture book too.
Becky Beach: Oh, I just always love that. Such an interesting idea.
I’ll ha make sure to put that in our show notes to it. Becky beat show.com and also all of Dr. AJ Lauer’s links will be there. And also for her upcoming workshop, should that be available, let’s go to Becky beat show.com. Well, thanks again for being here today, aj. Thank you so much, Becky. This was really fun. Okay, everybody have a great day.
Goodbye. Okay. Thanks so much for listening to the Becky Beach Show. Please check out the show [00:25:00] notes@beckybeachshow.com and my membership businessbeachclub.com to start and scale your own digital product business. Have a great day. See you next time in the Becky Beach Show.
